Sheila Herrling, the Energy for Growth Hub’s first Board Chair and expert in international development, US foreign policy, entrepreneurship, and philanthropy joins Rose and Katie for this episode of High Energy Planet. This episode explores challenges in development finance, why supporting diverse entrepreneurship is critical to creating change, and how Sheila approaches building organizational culture.
Sheila Herrling is a Board member (formerly Chair of the Board) for the Energy for Growth Hub, and an independent strategic advisor on entrepreneurship, results-based philanthropy, USG policy, and organizational governance. Previously, Sheila was a Senior Fellow for Social Impact and Innovation at the Beeck Center, the Senior Vice President for Social Innovation at the Case Foundation, Vice President of the Millennium Challenge Corporation, a senior policy director at CGD, and served in senior positions at the U.S. Treasury. She has more than 20 years of experience in international development and U.S. foreign policy, focused on aid innovation and effectiveness, monitoring and evaluation, and economic analysis.
Show Notes
- More on Sheila: at the Hub, at the Beeck Center, on LinkedIn, on X/Twitter.
- Sheila wrote about energy poverty with Todd Moss in “Scaling Power for Global Prosperity” for the Stanford Social Innovation Review.
- Sheila’s recent project: uncovering the story of Albert Rozin.
- How the Hub captures impact.
Transcript
(Music)
ROSE MUTISO: I’m Rose Mutiso.
KATIE AUTH: I’m Katie Auth, and this is High Energy Planet, the podcast from the Energy for Growth Hub about new ideas to solve global energy poverty.
ROSE MUTISO: So on today’s show, we’re so excited to have Sheila Herrling, who is the Energy for Growth Hub’s first ever board chair, and she’s also an absolute powerhouse in international development, U.S. foreign policy, entrepreneurship, and results-based philanthropy. Over the course of her career, Sheila has held senior management positions in the U. S. government, including the Treasury Department, the Millennium Challenge Corporation, and President Obama’s Foreign Policy Transition Team. She’s also led philanthropic organizations, first as a senior vice president for social innovation at the Case Foundation, and then as board vice chair of SeedSpot. In both positions, she’s worked to support impact investing and drive more inclusive entrepreneurship. Sheila, we’re so glad to have you.
SHEILA HERRLING: So great to be here.
KATIE AUTH: So, just very quickly about why we brought Sheila on the show today. When I left U. S. government to come to The Hub, it was a brand-new little startup think tank. No one really had heard of it. So I would tell friends where I was going and they’d be like, Oh, okay, that sounds cool, whatever. And then I would tell them that this woman that I didn’t know, SHEILA HERRLING, was our board chair, and their eyes would literally light up. And this happened with friends who had worked with her, friends who had friends who worked with her, or friends who had simply heard stories about her, like passed down through MCC or wherever else. And the thing that really struck me was that the things that they spoke about for Sheila were not actually about technical competence or any kind of technical skill, which she obviously has in spades, but it was more about how she made the people who worked with her and around her feel. And that is such a powerful thing. And one of her superpowers is actually building organizational cultures, which we’re going to talk about a little bit today. And so while she’s not an energy expert, as our first board chair, she played a huge role in building the Hub’s culture. Rose and I just love having had that experience with her.
ROSE MUTISO: Bit more of a personal testimonial, Sheila — I’ve known Sheila for a while through the Hub, so she was the first board chair and I was the first Hub fellow, and we’re just a couple of OGs here, the originals, but, it wasn’t until I was going through a big personal and career crisis that I got to see firsthand why people are always trying to get Sheila on their team. So she immediately set up regular one-on-ones with me for the toughest months of the transition. And for some reason, she was taking all her Zoom calls in a closet for those days. I don’t know what happened, but Sheila, I can see that you’re not in a closet anymore, so maybe things are looking up. And you know, she gave me incredibly helpful and practical advice. And this just was so instrumental in helping me come out on the other side of the transition in a much stronger position than I ever would have imagined. And so, Sheila knows how to build organizations, and she also knows how to build people up. And it’s a fantastic combination. And both me and the Hub are very lucky to have you on our side, Sheila.
SHEILA HERRLING: Guys, that’s so nice. I’m blushing, but nobody will see.
ROSE MUTISO: All right. So, um, uh, enough of the preamble, uh, let’s have the audience get to know you firsthand through this interview. So, jumping right into things, Sheila, uh, why don’t you tell us something about how and where you grew up and how it shaped you?
SHEILA HERRLING: Yeah, so I grew up in a very small, rural, suburban town outside of Hartford, Connecticut. Um, it was lovely in so many ways. It was small. Um, very tight knit. Um, but it was also stifling in some ways, um, that I felt at a young age without really knowing why. I mean, it was very homogenous, very white, very conservative. Um, and at some point, I mean, I remember being young and, you know, most people have an event or a person that, you know, was this epiphany for them. And for me, it really wasn’t that. It was just this feeling I had from a young age that there was something else, like there was something bigger. There was something different. Um, and I needed to get out. And I look back on this, and when I tell this to my family, they’re like, what did we do? Nothing. I mean, I had the greatest family. I had the greatest, you know, Upbringing. It was very freeing. I mean, there was very, we had so much autonomy as kids. There was no technology. I mean, we were running in the woods trying to stay out of trouble. Not always successfully. Uh, and I don’t know, I just felt like, um, there was a bigger world out there. didn’t really know where to direct that and I didn’t really get my direction towards international development until my senior year in college when I was looking for just interesting things to do. I’d already fulfilled my credits and I took an international economics and development class and the combination of the professor and the content, um, heavily focused on Africa. That is what sort of sparked my My interest for sure, which led me to my master’s program and this like, that’s what it is. It’s the equity issue. It’s the equity issue that is, was then, and always will be my through thread, um, for anything I take on, which is how can we make, how can we level the playing field and not have it just be left to where you were born or who’s in power? Um,
KATIE AUTH: I think to make your parents feel a little bit better, I think one of the, one of the gifts of having that kind of childhood, um, that makes you feel safe and empowers your curiosity is that in the best of cases, it leads people to see that there’s something better or to be able to ask good questions around why am I so privileged and others aren’t. And it sounds like, um, that was you. So that’s great.
SHEILA HERRLING: Yeah, no, I mean, that’s absolutely right. This idea of creating safe space. And I hope we get to that when we talk about organizational culture, because it’s exactly that. It is when you feel safe that you can ask the tough questions, that you can make mistakes, right? That you can fail and have it be a moment of learning, not a moment of go to your room, you’re grounded for three weeks. Um, And so, and just kind of the autonomy to, to learn those issues with your friends too, right? Um, and not have somebody just constantly over you. Where are you? When are you going to be back? Um, you know, trust would validate, um, kind of childhood.
KATIE AUTH: Um, we’re definitely going to get into some of that culture question. We, we absolutely want to talk about that, but we thought maybe we’d start with, you have such an interesting diversity in your background in terms of approaching international development from the government side, from DFIs, from philanthropy, you’ve kind of wrapped around the issue in a number of really interesting ways. And one thing you’ve said about. Seeing firsthand how development funds get prioritized and deployed is that you are often troubled by how far or how distant development systems and implementers were from the people that they were supposedly trying to support and We were curious if you have kind of one example that really struck that home for you or stuck with you What did that look like?
SHEILA HERRLING: Well, I think that there’s examples almost everywhere I went, but, um, you know, when I first started, one of my first jobs in international development was working for a USAID contracting, um, company. And, you know, we would spend all this time responding to proposals, um, largely in education, um, mostly in Latin America, um, completely devoid of talking to anyone from Latin America. Um, and it, we just would churn these things out. And I was a really good writer. And so I could really come up with some compelling paragraphs, you know, but I had
ROSE MUTISO: About what every child in Peru needs.
SHEILA HERRLING: yes, absolutely. Absolutely. How far it was to walk to school. And,
ROSE MUTISO: Oh, such texture.
SHEILA HERRLING: it’s so ridiculous. And I mean, I had like the winningest record there. And, um, Um, and then at some point it dawned on me that, you know, because for a while we’re all human, right? It’s sort of heady to be like, ooh, you know, I keep winning my proposals. And then all of a sudden it dawns on you like, this is so ridiculous.
KATIE AUTH: Mm-Hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: None of what I’m writing is influenced by Um, a real experience on the ground. It’s influenced by data and it’s influenced by conversations with, by the way, expatriates. Um, and so,
KATIE AUTH: Mm-Hmm?
SHEILA HERRLING: And so, you know, that was sort of early, um, early on. Then when I was at Treasury, you know, one of the greatest, um, pieces of work that I worked on at Treasury was when HIPAA debt relief first came out. Uh, and this, you know, was a program to relieve, if not eliminate, debt for the poorest countries in the world, and I mean, it was huge, and, uh, there was a lot of focus on all of the, you know, the math involved, right, to get rid of the debt, and the economics that were gonna, you know, that the, the economic programs that these countries were gonna have to agree to, in order to get the debt, and so just a lot of, you know, heads down, you know, in numbers, lots of negotiations. And then at some point, this topic of where are the people in these countries? What do they want and where do they want to direct the freed up money? conversation came up. And this was really bizarre for Treasury, right? Um, and so, but it was so exciting because it started this whole process called PRSPs. I can’t even remember what that stands for anymore, like poverty reduction strategy programs or something. I think that is what it was. Anyway, this was all about Getting input from people on the ground in these countries about where they wanted the money, where they wanted their governments to direct the
KATIE AUTH: Mm-Hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: And, You know, this was fascinating because it was sometimes things you would think, um, education, right, was probably one we all would have guessed in that correlated, but sometimes it wasn’t. It was things that, um, I mean, clean water, it sounds funny to say that now because it seems so obvious, but back then it wasn’t. And so, uh, and so this was a way. So all of a sudden I’m like, right, there’s a mechanism that requires. These big multilateral development agencies now to listen to the people that they are quote unquote trying to
KATIE AUTH: And did treasury actually, like did you have the flexibility to change, to actually listen to that input and change where you directed the money? That’s
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes, because it then became written into, you know, the governments were the, the receiving governments were the ones that were responsible for, for directing the money, but it had to be influenced by the, by the voices of civil society.
ROSE MUTISO: that’s, that’s so cool. A rare kind of silver lining story. It reminds me a bit when I used to work on energy efficiency, um, and energy access, um, and, you know, a lot of donors just hated the idea of. TVs. So like, you know, supporting technology to kind of increase efficiency of TV. And, you know, people in rural areas in Latin America and Africa, they want a TV and the donors are like, no, that’s frivolous. But, you know, it’s so interesting because at some point the Mexican government actually made a TV. access to TV kind of like a right because that’s where people get their entertainment, telenovelas, news and whatnot. And, you know, it just kind of really broke the brains of the development establishment that, you know, some people just want a TV and, and why not?
SHEILA HERRLING: well, it exposes the hypocrisy, right? I mean, it’s like, oh, we can have, we can have those things, but, you know, but we’re not going to let you have those things, um, when in fact they’re not superfluous. They are ways of getting information.
ROSE MUTISO: right. So, uh, Katie, One, one thread that’s run through your career is that you care deeply about impact, and it can be hard, especially when you’re a super small organization like The Hub, or like, you know, Mawazo, which is a charity I used to run in Kenya. Or any organizations that’s focused on something squishy like policy reform, which is, you know, also the Hub. So it’s really hard to tell your impact story in a way that’s A, accurate, B, compelling, and C, meets the demands of the funders. So what would you tell an organization that’s struggling to capture its impact? Mm hmm, mm
SHEILA HERRLING: Well, I am a big believer in impact, but I’m more of a believer in, um, authenticity and transparency. And so what I. I have always told people, including especially I saw this in the philanthropy side, is find a way to articulate your, the impact that you want to achieve and the impact you have achieved, but please make it authentic to your model, right? And so don’t go spending lots of money on these elaborate, you know, impact assessments when, when it doesn’t mesh to either your timeline. or the amount of resources you have or what you care about. So, you know, in, in philanthropic sector, I saw a lot of money and time being put to these very elaborate impact assessments, both asking recipients to do them and also the foundations themselves trying to do them. They were so out of whack with, you know, if you’re talking about giving a, um, an organization 10, 000. And you’re not going to be there again in a year. Why would you then ask for this elaborate, what kind of longer term impact did you have? Well, most of the time you wouldn’t have any long term impact after a year. And so it was just really out of whack with, um, you know, both the mission, the timeline. that you were, that you’re articulating. So, I mean, so I just have,
ROSE MUTISO: sorry, sorry, finish your thought, sorry to interrupt. Mm hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: so I just have always been a believer of just make sure that it lines up. And I think where the Hub landed actually is really powerful in the policy space. It’s a really good model for being able to articulate what you set out to do, uh, what you achieved and, and how, you know, you achieved.
ROSE MUTISO: Yeah, so I get all of that, and you know, the Habas somehow found a way to kind of innovate and create this amazing kind of impact narratives. But Over and over again, donors insist on these like, really burdensome impact reports, KPIs, like the whole shebang, how are you scaling to the stratosphere, impacts to the like, the most granular detail. And so why, why, why is this not changing? Or is there What is the, why this compulsion among funders to really kind of double down
SHEILA HERRLING: I, I wish I
ROSE MUTISO: of impact that doesn’t make any sense?
SHEILA HERRLING: I mean, I wish I knew because I think for me, one of the greatest frustrations being in the philanthropic space was, and it was probably just a misconception going in, I just thought,
ROSE MUTISO: right.
SHEILA HERRLING: wow, this is gonna be, like, risk capital,
ROSE MUTISO: Please
SHEILA HERRLING: This is gonna be, this is so great. It’s just gonna be, Um, you know, mostly families or people, right? Mostly living donors. They’ve, they’ve, they’ve achieved so much success, made so much money, they want to now give back. And it’s kind of like free money, and I don’t mean free money to be stupid with,
KATIE AUTH: Yeah.
SHEILA HERRLING: but free money to, um, have way less attachments to. Um, and so I wish I knew the answer of why. I think a lot of it is, um, it takes one. One foundation or one, um, philanthropist to be really brave and call it out and others follow. So there really is very much a herd mentality in the philanthropic space. Um, and you’re seeing some of that, like Mackenzie Scott. How great is that, right? Oh, right, right! We’re trying! Um, you know, so, God wish, right? And so, uh, so, like, that’s exciting, and the stuff that, um, you know, Melinda French Gates is doing with Pivotal, um,
KATIE AUTH: All these women.
SHEILA HERRLING: Please remain,
KATIE AUTH: Yeah.
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes!
KATIE AUTH: So I think it’s also cool, like for those of our listeners who maybe don’t know how the Hub captures impact, like what I think is really cool is that it leans into the fact that especially when you’re working on policy issues, Like you can’t possibly know at the beginning what your pathway is going to be because it’s all experimentation and it’s constantly readjusting to who are we trying to influence and okay, now there’s a new Congress and now what do we do? And it’s this iterative process. And I think one of the challenges you’re pointing to Rose in structures that demand really Um, structured results is that it doesn’t leave space for experimentation or failure. And Sheila, like, that’s one of your big arguments, is like, failure is Part of the process and has to, there has to be room for it. Yeah.
SHEILA HERRLING: has to be room for it. And also it’s really hard to, um, to both measure relationship building and gloat about it, right? So it’s like all these, they’re sort of, they contradict each other a lot because so much of particularly moving policy, but really anything, getting anything done is relationship building. And that can, you know, take a little bit of a process. You have to build trust. so much trust building and that’s very hard to measure. And then also it’s very hard to take credit for because so much of this is done behind the scenes. So much is done behind the scenes. And so you don’t necessarily always want to be calling that out. Um, and then taking credit for it seems kind of silly, right? So it’s, uh, it’s a hard one.
KATIE AUTH: Yeah. I feel like if you don’t do it well, it just sounds like it sounds like nothing. Like I had a meeting like, okay,
SHEILA HERRLING: Right.
KATIE AUTH: um,
SHEILA HERRLING: That’s
KATIE AUTH: we want to make sure that we do, sorry, Rose, go ahead. So we want to make sure we also touch on your entrepreneurship work, which is really fascinating. So. Another through line in your career has been this focus on supporting diverse entrepreneurship at the Case Foundation and then at Seedspot, which provides mentoring and resources to up to entrepreneurs. I’m curious, like what is it about entrepreneurship specifically that makes you see it as such a promising avenue for change?
SHEILA HERRLING: Well, that’s such a good question. I mean, I think why I love it is that all of us probably at some point in time have had a great idea, but not all of us have the courage to go out and try to build something around it. Um, and so those that step into that space are so Brave, right? They’re so brave and they’re willing to put an awful lot on the line. Their money, their relationships. It’s very hard to keep a relationship as a startup. Um, the ability to get through like, no, no, no, no, no, over and over and over again and continuing. Um, and they’re also brave because so many of the entrepreneurs, um, that I was working with anyway, were there by necessity. They’d lost their jobs. Um, and so it was, I don’t know, I never really liked this, like, you know, it was like divine intervention because nobody knows their job. Um, and so I never liked that it was often said, but there were lots of entrepreneurs who came up in that space and had nothing else to do but move their idea forward. Um, and so, In that space, it wasn’t necessarily lack of entrepreneurs, although that was a myth that was said all the time, it was the system of supporting those entrepreneurs that was broken. And that’s what I really wanted to get at. I really spent a lot of time getting at that part of it because there was a, Huge pipeline, actually, of black entrepreneurs and female entrepreneurs. Huge pipeline. It’s just that the system of supporting them wasn’t.
ROSE MUTISO: It’s so interesting to hear you say this because, um, uh, actually, uh, I had prepared a follow up that was kind of like, uh, gripe. We have this kind of good bad, good cop, bad cop thing, Katie’s like introduces a topic and then I just come in with my gripes. So I was going to come in and gripe about entrepreneurship and development, but then actually as you were speaking, it occurred to me that I’ve been a social entrepreneur. By definition. So I’ve, I’ve been and it was like, I was like, Oh, wait, she’s talking about me. I’ve been brave. I’ve done this.
KATIE AUTH: Rose.
ROSE MUTISO: something.
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes, because you saw something missing in the system you were working in, and instead of complaining about it, you created it, right? You created a solution to that problem. And
ROSE MUTISO: think that’s actually a beautiful way to put it. That being said, I do, I’m still gonna kind of go in for my gripe. So there’s a growing focus on using development and philanthropic funds to focus entrepreneurship. in kind of social entrepreneurship, particularly I think tech startups who are trying to solve development problems while turning a profit. So whether it’s off grid solar startups that are tackling energy access or ed tech startups filling education gaps or like e health, you know, there’s any number of them. And, um, it’s kind of a big and growing space, this kind of social innovation, social entrepreneurship. tech and tech startup kind of nexus. So sometimes it does seem like this approach of seeking kind of quote unquote fortune at the bottom of the pyramid might be doing a disservice to the truly poor. So what do you think? Are there limits to entrepreneurship as an avenue for change in this context?
SHEILA HERRLING: I mean, I mean, the obvious answer is sure. I mean, there’s limits in every space. Um, I think that I would remain, um, so I would remain, um, observance of trendiness, right? And so, and that especially in the, in the philanthropic space can be dangerous because of this herd mentality. So, you know, one foundation funds a startup and then the others come, like you see that a lot. And so in that, in that respect, you can potentially risk diverting money, too much money to one place that may or may not succeed. So, I don’t know, I think it’s always good to be cautious, but I also think there’s lots of exciting things happening in this space. And I wouldn’t, you know, like anything, I want it to be a one piece of the puzzle for sure. And I think it’s always a way of how do you get all of these actors to work better together, right? How do you get government, private sector, entrepreneurs, civil society, civil society all operating
KATIE AUTH: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: think that’s always the, that’s always the,
KATIE AUTH: So I want to pick up, go ahead, Rose.
ROSE MUTISO: No, I was just
SHEILA HERRLING: wants to gripe some more.
ROSE MUTISO: Well, oh gosh, no, no, no. I think no, I’m seeing, I’m seeing the error of my ways. Just as I said, even before I went into my gripe, I was like, oh wait, she’s really changing my mind here. But,
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes,
ROSE MUTISO: um,
SHEILA HERRLING: be open.
ROSE MUTISO: yeah. And, and you know, I think, I think you’re right. The issue is often structural. It’s when you have the bandwagon effect or when you have, uh, people wanting to, uh, you know, um, delegate things. difficult problems to somebody else. So if you don’t, you know, that sometimes governments and donors want the easy fix. And so the issue is not with having an idea and being an entrepreneur. The issue is when, you know, all of these other players are like misusing the instruments for other purposes. So yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense, what you’re saying.
KATIE AUTH: And also I think there’s something dangerous in the tendency to assume that everything is mutually exclusive. That if you’re supporting entrepreneurs, it means you’re not helping the poor, like there’s room for all of this stuff. And so I think part of the challenge also is to like focus on building an overall system that touches the entire spectrum, but there’s not— and that herd mentality doesn’t direct all of the resources into one niche, but is spread across that spectrum.
SHEILA HERRLING: I totally agree. And also, it comes back to, um, you know, the, the exciting things, at least from like, you know, like steep rise of the Rest here in our own country is, and of course it happens internationally, is your, your mission is to support entrepreneurs, and inevitably, that backs you up against policies that aren’t working.
KATIE AUTH: mm hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: And so, you can’t support your entrepreneurs and expect impact. If you don’t also take on influencing policy change to support them, and that’s exciting, right?
KATIE AUTH: So I want to pick up on, we’ve talked about this herd mentality that definitely occurs in the philanthropic space, but of course, like everyone falls victim to groupthink, whatever organization you’re in or social group. Um, and I know that’s a big part of what you try to counter when you talk about creating a culture that is safe and, um, open to diverse views. So can you just explain kind of why you think it’s so important to create that type of culture and then Maybe one or two specific things that you’ve tried to do to build that into a team that you’ve that you’ve run.
SHEILA HERRLING: Yeah, I mean, well, you guys know me, right? Culture, to me, is everything, um, and I learned, I learned, you know, I basically have led how I would want to be led, and I’ve learned that simply from being old and having lots of bosses who were really good, and Lots of bosses who were really bad and you know I probably learned more from the ones who are really bad because I was like wow, that’s so dysfunctional I will never do that. Like I can operate in that system, right? I could I can follow the incentives, but I’m not going to stay here long and I will never do that.
ROSE MUTISO: Mm-Hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: and so you learn. Um, yeah, I feel very strongly about creating an environment where people feel connected. So, yeah, I probably do use the word safe sometimes, but I think it really is where people feel connected. And connected. Of course, to the mission of the organization, because, you know, that’s why we’re all there anyway, so that was a natural cause, but connected to each other, and that, you know, took me a while to learn, because, I mean, my whole career, I was taught things that, in the end, if I wanted to have a team that was connected to each other, I had to stop listening to all of those leadership, you know, gurus. Um, so things like, you know, leave your personal life at home, don’t cross the line into the work office, don’t let your team see you cry or be vulnerable. Um, you know, these things, um, are just wrong, like the most, the most highly functioning teams I had, um, we knew each other personally. And in those moments where one of us. Needed support. People willingly jumped in because you cared about each other at that point. And that didn’t mean you agreed with each other. That didn’t actually always mean you liked them. Like you wouldn’t want to hang out with them after work. Um, but you knew them. And so therefore you had empathy and you wanted to step in and support that person so that you could support the mission. Um, diversity plays a big role in Um, I mean, I’ve just seen it over and over again on making the best decisions possible. Um, and that’s not just the obvious of, you know, gender and race, but, experience, um, you know, where you grew up, how you grew up, the conditions you grew up in, um, political party, like political views, having all of those ideas on the table, um, and that only happens if you’ve created a safe environment for people to do that because otherwise people will see themselves in the minority somehow. And what happens if you’ve ever been in that position is. Your human nature is to shut down. Well, I see where the majority of the opinion is, I’m not going to put out my idea now. Like, no one would understand it. Um, and if you have a leader who is a really active listener, really encourages everyone on their team to take a view and articulate it well (I learned that from Tim Geithner, so I should give him absolute credit on that), and to understand where people, when people were extroverts or introverts, and to create safe environment for the introverts, but also make sure that you got them to say their view. Um. Man, those introverts are always, they almost always have the most interesting, they almost always have the most interesting ideas. Um, and so you gotta get them to talk. Um, and so, but you’ve got to build that environment for them to do so and feel safe and then make sure that the people around them who are, you know, maybe in the majority and more loudspoken and, um, Also recognize, like recognize and appreciate their input. Well,
KATIE AUTH: As a lifelong introvert, I appreciate that. But I am curious, like, imagine you’re, we’re sitting in a meeting right now, and maybe you’re running it, or maybe you’re just observing, but you sense that the group is conforming in an unhealthy way. What are some of the specific interventions that you might do to kind of break the group out of that?
SHEILA HERRLING: a lot of times I will, like what I, I always expected my teams to be able to articulate the other side. Um, and so sometimes I would give that job to a person. Sometimes I would be the person, um, because, especially when you’re making tough decisions, you have to understand what you’re going to be up against. And so, um, And be able to articulate your way through and be able to kind of spitball. Well, you know, okay, so you know it’s going to happen, right? We’re going to take this, we’re going to take this decision forward and here’s the pushback.
ROSE MUTISO: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: do we say? Like, what’s the answer? Um, and there you really do have to spitball. And so in those situations, you have lots of people who are afraid to say an answer because they don’t want to sound stupid, but you’ve got to get those out there so you can perfect your response, um, and make sure that it still sounds good. You know, that like you haven’t been captured by this majority opinion of usually loud, smart guys, you know, saying the, this is it. This is what we know,
ROSE MUTISO: Mm-Hmm.
SHEILA HERRLING: to be able to kind of poke at it a little bit and make sure that you still feel the same way after, um, is, is good. So, you know, there are lots of tactics for doing it. You can do yourself as a leader. I always liked the, uh, the, um, tactic of calling on someone else to do it. Okay. It feels like we’re getting to a decision. It looks like almost everybody’s comfortable with it. Um, you know, Katie, what’s going to be the biggest pushback to this? What’s the biggest flaw to this thinking? And then as a group, you decide, you know, how to weather that. I know, I
ROSE MUTISO: that’s so cool. And, you know, uh, you’ve definitely done so much to instill this really open culture at the Hub. You know, we, we have introverts on the team. Uh, you know, we spitball a lot. Sometimes we cry. So, you know, check, check and check. Um, So.
SHEILA HERRLING: but like no
ROSE MUTISO: It’s a real testament, you know, um, to, to how much you’ve done to set this culture. So, um, um, thanks so much for that. All right. So we, we, we closed the kind of the main interview segment with the same question. And I’ve really been looking forward to asking you this question. Um, actually Katie and I did this. Uh, Ask Me Anything episode where we had to answer this question. It’s more difficult
SHEILA HERRLING: I know. I
ROSE MUTISO: we, than we thought. But you know, now I know, I know that you’re like a loyal listener. So, you know, you know, what’s coming. Um, but I, I honestly can think of somebody who will probably attack this. In a really, really cool way. So okay, Sheila, looking back, what’s the one thing that has changed the most about you since you started your career?
SHEILA HERRLING: Well, it’s not that I’m more patient. I can assure you of that. I’ve actually got more impatience as I’ve, you know, the longer I stay in this. Um, I would
ROSE MUTISO: love that. That’s a good callback because many people say they’re more patient in
SHEILA HERRLING: No! They’re lying! They’re lying! feel like you get more impatient, more intolerant. No, waste my time! Don’t waste my time! So, um, no, I would say that the biggest change, um, is that I am just more present, like I work very hard to be very present to whatever and whoever is in front of me at this moment. Um, and it’s really powerful because, you know, some of those moments are hard, painful. Um, and instead of, you know, what I used to do is run from them, right? Or come up with their, like, find, like, action, action, action, I’m a problem solver. Do this, do that, do this. Um, and we’re done. Um, or redirect, uh, to something else. And, um, I just have I really found such a difference in life to be able to just be present. You know, I found some of my old, like, um, treasury notebooks. I mean, I don’t know why I keep all this, I don’t know why I keep all this
KATIE AUTH: No, I love it. That’s part of your, your journey.
SHEILA HERRLING: It’s so funny. And so, um, and I’m like, oh my gosh, you see, what I used to do in meetings is I would sit there and as people were talking, I would literally write down what I was going to say. And, man, they are some of, like, the most poignant, smart, snarky comments that were never said. Because, by the time I got, like, the perfect sentence crafted, the conversation had moved on. Like, so, it’s just, like, I laughed out loud. I’m like, right! And that’s why, if you’re just present, and you’re not worried about, um, what I’m gonna say, Because if you’re worried about what you’re going to say, you’re actually not listening fully to the person who’s talking. And so you just miss out so much. And if, now like, you know, and just whether they’re friends or colleagues or whatever it is, um, I just listen more with the view to being a listener. than being a problem solver. And, and that’s hard. I took a lot of training cause I’m such a problem solver. Like, and so I just like to be able to just kind of take a pause and say, was that enough? Was listening to what you said enough? Or would you like to problem solve? Like, do you want my, would you like my feedback? Would you like some ideas? Or was that enough? And it’s amazing how many times people say, okay. That was enough. I just needed to share.
KATIE AUTH: That’s
SHEILA HERRLING: And that is a gift.
ROSE MUTISO: Yeah, it’s interesting. Just, just yesterday I was talking to my husband about this because I have a tendency to always be dispensing advice, you know, just like, and you know, sometimes he just wants to be heard, you know, he doesn’t want practical, he doesn’t want practical solutions. He just wants, hear me out. And so actually, I’ve really been reflecting on that, just like, what, what do people need out of this conversation, out of this interaction? And so, so, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s great thing that you’re, you know, you got to that point, and I’m working towards it.
KATIE AUTH: Me too. But I will also say, like, even the way we’re framing this in this conversation of like, is it listening or is it problem solving? I think listening is a hugely underrated aspect of problem solving. Like if you’re, to Sheila’s point, like, if you’re not listening to what the person is saying, you’re never going to get to the solution that makes sense. So part of it is like breaking down the division between those two things. Um,
SHEILA HERRLING: And be like, train yourself to be open because we have so much experience already. We already have views. They’re so formed. Right. And so that’s just human. That’s just being a human being. But being able to be open to the possibility to change that view, that’s right. Doesn’t mean you will, but like, yeah. But if you’re present, you have more of a chance.
ROSE MUTISO: Okay, so be present and less patient. Got it.
SHEILA HERRLING: I know! Do the two go together?
ROSE MUTISO: So
KATIE AUTH: Uh, that’s a great place to pause Sheila. And when we come back, we’ll play short circuit.
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KATIE AUTH: ready, Sheila. All right. Uh, I’m just going to start. Um, all right, Sheila, it’s time to play short circuit, a rapid fire round of questions. Are you ready?
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes.
KATIE AUTH: All right. First, what’s one thing about you that you think might surprise other people?
SHEILA HERRLING: Um, that I love tarot cards, tarot card readings, that spiritual stuff.
ROSE MUTISO: Okay. I, I’m surprised, but you
KATIE AUTH: I am, I am very surprised, but also I can’t wait for you to read my tarot card. So
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes!
ROSE MUTISO: I’m, I’m not involved in this. I want you to read like my, like, you know, my health indicators, you know, something scientific. Okay. All right. So next one. So working in government can be many things, frustrating, exhilarating, challenging. What was the most fun part of working in the USG?
SHEILA HERRLING: The incredible number of smart people. They were so smart. So smart.
KATIE AUTH: government workers get a terrible, uh, terrible rap. They’re
SHEILA HERRLING: Terrible rap.
KATIE AUTH: Mm hmm,
SHEILA HERRLING: And really, the smartest people I’ve ever worked with have been in government.
KATIE AUTH: that’s awesome. Uh, fill in the blanks. The U. S. should devote money to international development because
SHEILA HERRLING: It’s in our own interests.
KATIE AUTH: I get most nervous when Sheila’s never nervous.
SHEILA HERRLING: I don’t know. I get most nervous when the phone rings late at night.
KATIE AUTH: Oh, as a mom, I feel that one. Uh, my happy place is
SHEILA HERRLING: The anything water, lakes, oceans, rivers, fishing, if fishing is involved, real happy place.
ROSE MUTISO: Katie, I feel like this is like, you too,
KATIE AUTH: know, yeah, I’m just like nodding along. People can’t see me, but I’m like, yes, water, uh huh.
ROSE MUTISO: Okay. Okay. So what’s something you love about where you currently live?
SHEILA HERRLING: that there are dogs everywhere. So many dogs.
ROSE MUTISO: Do, do some of these dogs belong to you or are you just
SHEILA HERRLING: Yes, yes, yes. We have like the, biggest, slobbering est, loving est golden retriever.
KATIE AUTH: Awesome.
ROSE MUTISO: sweet.
KATIE AUTH: Um, that’s it, Sheila. Thank you so much for being on the show. We loved having you and, uh, we’ll see you around.
SHEILA HERRLING: I loved doing this, you guys. Can’t wait to see you in person.
KATIE AUTH: That’s it for today’s show. High Energy Planet is a production of the Energy for Growth Hub, matching policymakers with evidence based pathways to a high energy future. Find out more at energyforgrowth. org and share your questions and thoughts with us at Energy for Growth on X and LinkedIn.
ROSE MUTISO: And if you liked today’s episode, be sure to rate and review the podcast and tell a friend about us. Audrey Zena is our executive producer. Join us next time for more High Energy Planet. Okay. I will. Okay. All right. It’s okay. Um, if you like today’s episode, be sure to rate and review the podcast and tell a friend about us. Audrey Zenner is our executive producer. Join us next time for more High Energy Planet.
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