Kanika Chawla, Chief of Staff at SEforALL, joins Rose and Katie to discuss what’s ahead for the 2025 SEforALL Global Forum, how SEforALL builds trust with governments, and what’s next for SDG7. Plus, why she calls London her favorite Indian city (yes, really).
Kanika Chawla, Chief of Staff at SEforALL. In that role, she works to help countries around the world reduce energy poverty and advance their energy transitions. She also serves as the Energy Sherpa to the UN Crisis Response Group. Kanika previously worked at the Council on Energy, Environment and Water in New Delhi and at the REN21 Secretariat in Paris where she was one of the authors of the REN21 Global Status Report on Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency.
Show Notes
Transcript
[00:00:05] KATIE AUTH: I am Katie Auth.
[00:00:07] ROSE MUTISO: And I’m Rose Mutiso, and this is High Energy Planet, the podcast from the Energy for Growth Hub about new ideas to solve global energy poverty and the people behind them. On today’s show, we have Kanika Chawla, chief of staff at SE for All. In that role, she works closely with the CEO of SE for ALL and Energy for Growth Hub Board member Damilola Ogunbiyi to help countries around the world reduce energy, poverty, and advance their energy transitions. She also serves as the energy Sherpa to the UN Crisis Response Group. And maybe we’ll get into what a Sherpa means. Kanika previously worked at the Council on Energy Environment and Water in New Delhi and at the Ren 21 Secretariat in Paris, where she was one of the authors of the Ren 21 Global status report on renewable energy and energy efficiency, where she worked with my husband, which is really funny, and a small world.
[00:00:56] ROSE MUTISO: I didn’t know that. Very
[00:00:57] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm.,
[00:00:58] ROSE MUTISO: all right, so we’re really excited to have Kanika on the show, not just because she has this interesting link to Katie and her husband, but also, and, and not just because, , she has, you know, this glowing CV from the bio we just heard, but because. I really feel that Kanika exemplifies something incredibly valuable in the energy poverty space, which is this unique ability to move seamlessly between deep analytical work, hell of a policy, and often politics, and also on the ground implementation.
[00:01:26] ROSE MUTISO: So even when running operations for E for all and coordinating with a sprawling constellation of governments and partners all over the world, Kanika continues to write technical papers, which she says she does it. To kind of stay simulated and to relax, , and, and continues to think deeply about energy systems.
[00:01:43] ROSE MUTISO: And so that kind of range from theory to tactics to execution is exactly what we need more of in this field. And we look forward to exploring how she brings these different perspectives together in her work. So welcome Kanika.
[00:01:55] KANIKA CHAWLA: Thank you. Wow, that was such a warm welcome. I love it.
[00:02:05] ROSE MUTISO: So tell us something about how and where you grew up and how it shaped you.
[00:02:11] KANIKA CHAWLA: So I was born in Delhi and with my parents’ work moved around a fair bit. And I think the one thing that I had to learn quite quickly as a, as a child, I was moving every two years was the no two places are the same and that. You don’t have to be the same. So it’s this constant opportunity to reinvent yourself a little bit, but also respond to the situation.
[00:02:37] KANIKA CHAWLA: And I think it’s something that.
[00:02:39] KATIE AUTH: When you say you were moving every two years, was that just within India or was that internationally also?
[00:02:45] KANIKA CHAWLA: It was internationally actually, and, and all kinds of, you know, , islands and little countries and countries with unique challenges. And I think it was, I didn’t realize then how much that would ground the work that.
[00:02:58] KATIE AUTH: Hmm. That’s so cool. I had no idea actually. I was also reading through your background and I, I’d forgotten that you’re such a strong economist by training and I was. Reviewing kind of, you studied economics at the University of Delhi for your undergrad and then you got your master’s degree in economics and development economics at the University of Nottingham.
[00:03:19] KATIE AUTH: And I was thinking, you know, I’d imagine that those two places, , may have different perspectives on development economics given their different histories. And the UK is obviously the ex colonial ruler of India. Just like a really interesting dynamic there. What was the most striking contrast you noticed in how development economics was presented in India versus the uk?
[00:03:43] KANIKA CHAWLA: I think one of the things for me, when I set out to study economics was not actually in my undergraduate studies, was not really a focus on development economics, right. So I
[00:03:52] KANIKA CHAWLA: was just exploring economics as a discipline and what really stuck out to me in the study of development economics as an undergraduate student was. The, the qualitative stories or applications of what we were learning in theory to, to the lived reality that I was seeing around me,
[00:04:11] KANIKA CHAWLA: and then to take that and then actually get a master’s degree in it, I thought was, was a really nice way to then learn the empirical methods to advance. Interesting questions that I wasn’t necessarily getting at university, but that I had perhaps grown up with. So, so I think it was a bit more of, um, getting the questions, uh, when I was in India and then learning the techniques to respond to those questions when I was doing my master’s work.
[00:04:39] KATIE AUTH: And did you feel like the kind of theoretical training you received in your master’s degree had a strong grounding in the lived reality of what you’d seen in India?
[00:04:50] KANIKA CHAWLA: Very, very much so. And I think this, this really came across quite a lot also as we were, um, as a cohort, you know, exchanging ideas where. There was, there was the, the nuanced understanding that you have from having lived something and having seen it and then really understanding. So just, just as an example, AM San, was India’s first Nobel laureate and his work in development economics, it just made so much more sense once I understood the tools and its applications.
[00:05:18] KANIKA CHAWLA: But I would never, I would imagine that he would never have even come up with that question or that line of inquiry if he had not had that lived reality. So I find that deeply inspirational as well.
[00:05:28] ROSE MUTISO: This is so interesting, and actually I’m going to, uh, very occasionally on the podcast, I, I make a plug for the United Kingdom, which is a surprise for me as somebody from Kenya who is also like a, you know, I, you know, I, living in the UK was surprising for me because I was like, oh, what am I doing here in the lap of the imperialist?
[00:05:45] ROSE MUTISO: But something that has been interesting has been actually a lot of, especially the kind of the, the Commonwealth or, you know, this, this x. Colonial, uh, mix of ethnicities and countries and people often end up here and the mix can be quite diverse. And so I’m imagining that your cohort in the university was actually like. Quite mixed, like a lot of mixed perspectives, often from the ex colonies, which kind of, I think, surprises a lot of people. ’cause this image of the UK has this imperial power that’s dry and very undiverse. And then on the ground it actually attracts this interesting mix. I, I, I, I, hopefully, I think, I think this resonates with you and I’m not just making an empty plug for the uk.
[00:06:30] KANIKA CHAWLA: No, no, but that’s exactly right. I mean, you know, I often joke that London might be my favorite Indian city, but it’s also true for Kenyans and Nigerians and Chinese people and, and, and I think it’s especially London, right? And I think that that’s really what’s, what’s. So interesting is when, and it’s also true in the work that that I do now at SE for All, is you feel like you understand one context or one, and in my case, that’s India and then suddenly you think, especially ’cause India is such a large and diverse country, and then you’re like, oh. Broadly get it,
[00:07:02] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:02] KANIKA CHAWLA: in a com. You know, either talking to someone who has had a very distinct and different experience, or working in a country that is, that is different and you are like, oh, I actually don’t get this at all. And that’s both extremely humbling and challenging, but also so exciting because you know, we have all this opportunity to just to really influence the thinking, our own thinking, but also the thinking and draw on our experiences. Um, so the thinking of different countries, and that’s quite an interesting.
[00:07:31] ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. And I think tying back to your, um, your point about having to reinvent yourself and living in different places, it almost seems that wear matters, but maybe not in the, the ways that we think, you know, that it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s less of a constraint and more of an opportunity. So, okay. Moving on and, and trying to bring us back, uh, to the core focus of this, uh, podcast.
[00:07:52] ROSE MUTISO: So when did you realize that you wanted to focus on energy? So where, where does the energy come in and the energy sector come in, in all of this?
[00:08:00] KANIKA CHAWLA: So, you know, I think it was, um. Partly by accident and partly by understanding how many different development challenges actually hinge on energy.
[00:08:13] KANIKA CHAWLA: And I think that the, so the, the partly by accident was, you know, you, I was graduating in 2010 into a really bad economy and I did know that I wanted to stay in the development space. Um, so there was just a little bit of like scouting what is available, but I. As, as you’re trying to answer interesting questions, so many of those questions were the, the moment you dig a bit deeper, right? Like, say access to education or healthcare or, or gender rights. So much of that actually links back to energy being at the, at the. Core of the solution.
[00:08:52] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:53] KANIKA CHAWLA: it, it became, and so for me actually working on energy is very much a, a development pursuit with climate as a very important and happy core benefit. But also thinking about energy as an unlock for, , income generation for local communities. And, and, you know, the, the thinking about like decent living as opposed to just having an electricity connection.
[00:09:16] KATIE AUTH: Yeah, and obviously, I mean, I think this is why. Rose and I and the hub love you so much, is that we obviously share that, that vantage point. Um, I wanna talk a little bit about the specific work that you do with SE for All. I think SE for All is really interesting in the role that it’s played in the energy poverty fight over time. Um, just for listeners, you know, it was established by the UN Secretary General back in 2012. During what was declared the International Year of Sustainable Energy for all, and that was at the same time that the SDGs were launched. SDG seven is obviously all about sustainable energy for all. And SC for all your organization became almost the public face of the SDG seven, um, campaign. But over the years, I think it’s really interesting because you seem like you’ve evolved well beyond. Public face and advocacy and you’re now deeply involved also in implementation and you’re working on the ground in a bunch of different countries. And Rose and I realized in prepping for this, like even we who track this space really closely, often have no idea the amount or the extent of the work you guys are doing. So what is the single most interesting or exciting thing that SE for All is working on right now?
[00:10:36] KANIKA CHAWLA: So I think the single most exciting thing just coming out of last year was the, the public commitment that the World Bank and the African Development Bank jointly made to power 300 million people, uh, with clean energy solutions by, uh, 2030. And these would all be new, new. Connections. Right?
[00:10:56] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:57] KANIKA CHAWLA: that’s half of the world’s people that are living in abject energy poverty. And while that 300 million is the base, when you are able to kind of aggregate that demand and say, we are going to do, it’s, it’s a signal to say there’s going to be the creation of well-functioning clean energy markets. That will be kind of a knock on effect of this.
[00:11:19] KANIKA CHAWLA: And so SE for All is a, is an enabling, implementing partner. At the heart of what we were set up to do exactly as you just identified Katie, but also just such a unique way to tie in so many things beyond just connections. Right? So it’s about the, the, the creation of markets. It’s about the creation of, of the local capital flows. It’s about the training of human, uh. Create the value that would be required in, in a continent, which is the youngest continent in, in the world, right? And so I think a lot of these aspects of just providing access will have these ripple effects that will foul far out number, kind of what can be even quantitatively monitored.
[00:12:14] ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. Uh, super interesting. I just wanted to step back for a second. So, what, what specifically would, is, is se for all’s role in this consortia? You said you’re in implementing partners. Like what does that like, um. Entail so that we have a bit more of a flavor of like SE Falls role in this complicated multi-partner, you know, the MFI, the MDBs and dfi and governments and philanthropies.
[00:12:38] ROSE MUTISO: It’s kind of mixed up.
[00:12:40] KANIKA CHAWLA: Yeah. Transitions are are messy, right? So I think perhaps our, our work is to bring a little bit of order to it. And what that means is, of course, that the, the two banks will be, um, doing the, the project financing of these projects. But it is also for our role is to work alongside governments in identifying the opportunities in doing what we are calling, kind of like activation plans. Be quite specific and have evidence driven approaches to what they would like to do, where they would like to do it, um, doing kind of geospatial mapping of the actual sites. So, so really kind of the, the nuts and bolts of. Implementation of this scale and size. And of course, you know, bringing into this mix is also the role of philanthropy, which will catalyze this, this kind of public private moment.
[00:13:31] KANIKA CHAWLA: And I think we, we very much see ourselves only as an enabler. This is really work that governments are leading and that the banks are leading. But I think that our role in it can be.
[00:13:46] ROSE MUTISO: So, there’s been a lot of, buzz and excitement around M 300, which is like the new, new kid on the energy access block. And I mean, to be honest, I mean, this space has needed something, energizing, pun, pun intended, something new.
[00:13:58] ROSE MUTISO: ’cause I think we’re getting kind of depressed and cynical about the lack of progress. So it’s, it’s, you know, a spotlight on this topic is needed and exciting. On the other hand, I think there’s a little bit of a sense of. How will this be different? Right. So I remember even in the early days of SE four, all, there’s a big push for, in the early days of SDG seven, there’s a big push for country action plans and investment plans and, and you know, and the banks and dfi and, you know, people and governments were coming together.
[00:14:28] ROSE MUTISO: Around similar issues, not maybe, definitely not the same design or like the same kind of target targets or , modality. But, you know, some people kind of feel a little bit exhausted. And so, um, and, and some of those people may be among our, our listeners or feel a little bit like, here we go again. What is, what is, what do you say to those people who are, who are wondering, is this just another kind of go out the wheel of new commitments, new goals, new initiatives?
[00:14:56] KANIKA CHAWLA: Yeah, but I also feel like we’ve learned so much in these last 12 or 13 years, and we do need to have another go at the wheel because what we were doing was, you know, woefully inadequate. And so I think that, to me, it’s this kind of. It’s the marriage between the, the capital and the commitments.
[00:15:16] KANIKA CHAWLA: And they’re not like, they’re not sequential. It’s all kind of, the commitment has been made. There is a lot of, uh, supporting partners, which I think is actually contributing to, like you said, this Milan of actors in many ways. But I think that the fact that they’re already at the table, there is money on the table, there is, you know, technical assistance support on the table that will actually help translate what’s in the commitment.
[00:15:41] KANIKA CHAWLA: So there, I
[00:15:42] ROSE MUTISO: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:43] KANIKA CHAWLA: feel like there is a sense of urgency and there’s a sense of understanding that this transition is an opportunity to unlock the potential of this continent. And, and governments know this more than before. I mean, Katie was alluding to se for all’s role having evolved from, from being the face and, and the, um, the advocate in many ways to now doing implementation support.
[00:16:06] KANIKA CHAWLA: And I think that that’s really also been the journey. The energy space, like the energy paradigm has shifted. We were working on advocacy because it was not a truism that clean energy solutions are the best way to unlock development. Whereas today, I feel like it’s much more about the how do we do it, as opposed to should we or should we not?
[00:16:26] KANIKA CHAWLA: And so I think. Since we are at the how stage, it’s a little bit like, let’s see what all is in the toolbox. Let’s bring all the tools out and see what’s what do, which is also.
[00:16:41] ROSE MUTISO: I’ll just say I love what you said about the marriage of the resource and the commitment, and I think this has often been missing. Uh, I really like that.
[00:16:47] KATIE AUTH: Yeah, and I think like coming from someone who was at Power Africa for a long time, which is very similar in many ways to, its to the M 300 mission, it’s about. Bringing different partners together and figuring out, like how do you help the big, you know, clunky banks move a little bit faster and more efficiently. Um, I think Rose, like I totally get the sort of exhaustion that you’re channeling a little bit here and the sense of like, oh my gosh, we’ve been trying to make progress on this global problem for so many years and it just seems so hard. I think it’s important to, to kind of flip the framing on that a little bit and say like. Yeah, we’ve been doing this for a really long time, which means that we’ve learned so much, and I think I agree with Conica, like we’ve genuinely learned so much and we have failed and we’ve made mistakes. But like each of those, um, has to be an opportunity for learning. So I’m, I’m excited that you guys are kind of, um, stepping up and, and making a big push again.
[00:17:49] KATIE AUTH: I think it’s
[00:17:49] ROSE MUTISO: Yeah, no, definitely. Super, super exciting and, and we look forward to, to. To seeing kind of what becomes of this initiative in the coming years. Okay. So, um, a bit more on SE for all. Um, so you said that the trust SE for all has earned from governments is what you’re most proud of. Can you give us a concrete example that shows this trust in action and, and what do you think has been most crucial in building it?
[00:18:18] KANIKA CHAWLA: So I think the, the trust is built on the back of two really important things. The first is evidence and the second is, is not helicoptering in. So I, I dunno the, the kind of, um, positive framing of that, but I’ll explain it in just a moment. Let me use the example of the work we did in Ghana. So, um, a couple of years ago, Ghana made a request of SE for all to do a whole of economy energy transition plan. And so that was a how do we decarbonize and by when do we decarbonize? Ghana at that point already had in its NDC in net zero. And used basically all of the work and the policies and, and the technical support that they had already received rather than duplicating it. We used that as input identified gaps and developed a open source lease cost energy transition plan for them. This plan was dramatically different than what they were thinking they were going to do to decarbonize, which. A lot of nuclear and net zero by 2070. And based on evidence, we were able to show to them that actually there is a much more solar focused transition pathway and you can transition to net zero by 2060. And based on that, the president made a revised commitment, um, to the U NF CC to, to, um, have to basically transition to net by. It was entirely driven on evidence. But the second piece of it is we worked with every single Ghanaian ministry. This is a, this is across the board, right? So it was, it wasn’t just an energy ministry driven thing. And so I think that was one really important point. We worked with local experts and we hired teams in country. Us sitting in New York and wherever else and doing this, and we transferred the model to them so that they can kind of learn, but also updated in at the end this process. The team that we had in place has stayed and translated this transition plan into an investment plan. So sector by sector, what is the investment above business as usual that will be required? And now we’re working with them on their green mobility policy. Thinking about how do you write, say, uh, electric mobility policy? How do you write a tender? So really kind of, you know, as I like to jokingly sometimes say it’s a, it’s a full service offer of support, right? It’s not like, okay, I wrote a report.
[00:21:08] KANIKA CHAWLA: Here’s a report. Your logo’s on it. My logo’s on it. Goodbye. It’s really about we want to be your partners in this process, and we will always rely on evidence, on your priorities and on your people to get this.
[00:21:22] ROSE MUTISO: Super, super interesting. Would you, how, how far down the pipeline? So I like, I like this full service, um, uh, motif. how far. On the pipeline, do you go, do you also work with governments to seek investment court or are you guys really on the technical assistant arm? Like how, where, where do you draw the bounds of, of, of how far you go in, in this support and how deep you go?
[00:21:42] KANIKA CHAWLA: Yeah, so I think we, we. We will do the, the planning. We will work on, on ka some of the policy and regulatory design and we will also help build a, a pipeline of projects. What that means is that basically identify areas where we, that are investment ready today, and then areas that are gonna be investment ready in three years, five years, things like this. We do not do transaction advisory. That is not, you know, we don’t see that as our role. Our role is to create public goods, but we do put enough information out there and facilitate enough dialogue, both with development partners as well as private capital so that those conversations can go forward. So it’s a little bit like peaking the interest of relevant partners and then stepping away.
[00:22:29] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm. Um. In a couple months. In April of this year, SE FOR All is gonna host its big annual summit in Barbados. And Barbados obviously most people know, became a big deal when Mia Motley launched the Bridgetown Initiative. And I think a lot of people think broadly about the Bridgetown initiative as mostly a an urgent and ambitious call to reform. Kind of the international financing architecture that we rely on in the world. Things like debt, sustainability and how to make sure that the system functions more fairly for low income economies. But you see a very strong tie to the energy sector, and I’m curious if you can lay that out for us. What are the ties between the Bridgetown initiative and Energy, and what are you most excited about in that, in that pairing?
[00:23:20] KANIKA CHAWLA: Yeah, so firstly the, the Global SE for All forum in Bridgetown is in March. Um, so it’s the, it’s the, no, no, no problem. I’m just plugging it. The 12th and 13th of March. I hope to see many, many, um, of your listeners there, but also the both of you. The, the reason we decided to do it, uh, I mean it’s co-hosted by Prime Minister Motley, and it is also because we did upon her request an energy transition and investment plan for Barbados and, and her ambition to, to go net zero in such an aggressive way has been really quite an inspiration also for us in terms of what is possible, like, you know, when. This, this forum is an opportunity to bring together the issues around Bridgetown and the recommendations of the Bridgetown initiative and the energy transition is because energy transition is. Deeply hamstrung by the lack of available resources, financial resources.
[00:24:18] KANIKA CHAWLA: And that’s because financial resources continue to flow based on, um, an understanding of the energy system of the past, but also on, let’s say, some of the development levers of the past. And what we want to do is try and better understand how to translate the recommendations of the Bridgetown initiative in a way that actually results in. Into not just energy projects, but very specifically energy for development. Energy for adaptation, energy for resilience projects. And I think that the, just to tie this back to Mission 300, I think that’s a really good example of, in many ways, a quite. Innovative or novel approach to how there’s been a replenishment, um, of the, of the World Bank IDA funds for, to be leveraged for Mission 300, right? And completely in line with recommendations of the Bridgetown initiative. But how do we do that at scale and how do we do that, um, in a way that is not the exception to the rule, but the rule itself. And then there’s, there, there is the, the slightly more, let’s say. Deeper conversation that doesn’t just bring development and energy together, but also climate into the mix. Right? So, so countries that have the greatest amount of debt distress are often deeply correlated to the countries that also have the greatest amount of climate vulnerability. So they’re, they’re redirecting resources to service debt, but also to respond to this crisis that they didn’t necessarily contribute to in any significant way. And what is the role of Clean Energy solutions in responding to that? And can there be solutions? So for example, are there ways to direct capital into, as an example, um, solar based irrigation pump sets that boost both agriculture productivity, make things better for, for a class of the economy that is often the most distressed by debt, while also responding to the adaptation need that has been caused by. And so really thinking about some of these, these interesting intersections that all emerge out of an implementation of Bridgetown,
[00:26:36] KATIE AUTH: So I wanna pick up on something really interesting you said. You mentioned that. Um, we rely too much on development levers of the past. Can you give me what’s a development lever of the past, and then what’s a development lever of the future that you’re excited about?
[00:26:54] KANIKA CHAWLA: I think the development lever of the past would be. Let’s say, um, maybe to use a clean cooking example, right? So I think that there was a clean cooking has for long been within the development community, been understood to be a deeply underserved, but very large problem that has health impacts, gender-based impacts, um, and, and of course climate and environmental impacts at, at large. And yet some of the solutions and the password to pass out cook stoves
[00:27:30] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:30] KANIKA CHAWLA: as opposed to more market-based approaches and market-based approaches is not the same as market reflective pricing, but they, you can still create market-based approaches that create a much larger footprint. So you are still using public money or or you know, concessional money of some variety. Instead of just outright buying and, and handing out cook stoves, you are able to either subsidize them, you’re able to create, you know, cooking as a, as an income generating activity that, that, you know, you do electric cooking and you make sales and so you’re able to afford it. And then that has, that has knock on effects, interlink, nutrition and, and clean cooking activities.
[00:28:11] ROSE MUTISO: All of the things that in the past I feel like development, finance of the past has been also. Quite, um, linearly divided. This is an education activity. This is a health activity. This is a energy activity. Whereas one of the things that, you know, as I was saying at the very start, energy underpins so many of these priorities, and by thinking about things in a much more interconnected way, we’re able to both tap into larger pools of concessional capital, but more importantly, make much more well-rounded development policy initiatives.
[00:29:05] ROSE MUTISO: This is all really, really interesting, but we’re getting to the end of the, kind of main part of the interview. So I just wanted to squeeze in, , before, before we leave a question about 2030. So, um, 2030 is a bit of a cliff for the world. Back in 2015, it seemed like a long time. Many like a century away, but here it is. It’s just around the corner. So we’re fast approaching 2013, it’s becoming clear that we won’t achieve SDG Seven’s goal of universal energy access. And I’d like to explore this with you from a few angles. , first, what does it mean? . That we’re going to miss this target, and especially because you are obviously very passionate about this mission and you work for an organization who is really driven and animated by this mission, like what does it mean that, that, you know, we’re gonna miss this target.
[00:29:31] KANIKA CHAWLA: I mean, it definitely gives me pause. Uh, and I think, you know, Rose was what you were saying earlier as well. We have, we have tried and not always tried the, the right things, but I think it’s, it’s a little bit like we just don’t necessarily always have the time to also complete the circles of effort and we need to iterate within them. And I think we’re learning to do that hopefully. but I. The language needs to evolve, right? I mean, the SDG seven is very much about ending energy poverty, but what is the definition of energy poverty? Is it two light bulbs, a fan and a phone charger? Are we limited by our imagination of the energy demands of a household? And I think so. So there is one is by how much are we going to miss it? And I think a lot of the efforts in the next five years can help us make a sizable dent. In the original goal, but then we need to revise the, the goal to also think about what does, what is the absence of energy poverty,
[00:30:45] KANIKA CHAWLA: you know, what is that the equivalent of that $2 a day. for energy,, consumption and to think about it beyond consumption or consumptive load and to really think about, you know, income generating activities about, productive uses. And then, you know, SDG seven also has a renewable energy and energy efficiency and an energy investment angle and. You will never reach that. I mean, the, until the entire world is decarbonized, , we have a long way to go. So, so I think that SDG seven has some legs yet. We have definitely missed the mark so far, but I am, I am hopeful and I feel like we have no other option but to be hopeful so that we can continue to work with.
[00:31:28] ROSE MUTISO: That was a great response and actually you anticipated my follow-up questions about what we need to change in the next round. I think you kind of covered that and, and also I think you touched on my last question, which was, what is the value? You of these frameworks, why do we set these goals if we don’t achieve them?
[00:31:43] ROSE MUTISO: And I think that there, there seems to be value in the aspiration and moving in that direction. And what else do you think is valuable about, let’s do it again, let’s do another SDGs. , let’s, let’s keep setting these goals.
[00:31:58] KANIKA CHAWLA: I think it’s a little bit like if, uh, if you didn’t have the goal, what would you monitor? And if you don’t monitor, then is it really true? You know, it’s so easy to forget the people that live without any, any electricity or any energy. And, and it’s in many ways if you were to only chase other priorities like emissions and things like that, the people that are not consuming any energy are best forgotten.
[00:32:25] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:26] KANIKA CHAWLA: so I think it’s really important to have this goal to make sure that we really, you know, as the SDGs were designed to be, to leave no one behind. But I think there’s also the, the other advantage of, of learning, right? So I think because there is a monitoring report that happens every single year, we actually learned that in the covid years. People went back into energy poverty that had actually left it. And, and if we didn’t have the goal and if we didn’t have the mechanisms for monitoring, we would never have learned that.
[00:32:53] KANIKA CHAWLA: So I think it’s a little bit also about not just making change, but making irreversible change. And, and I think the goal helps us stay on track or we are not on track, but to, to keep track of where we are.
[00:33:07] KATIE AUTH: And having a goal that’s, , relatively universal so that. Every entity is kind of tracking the same thing. It just brings a sort of cohesiveness and coherence to the sector. Even if the target itself is not perfect, maybe it’s not what we ultimately want to measure. We can make it better. We can change it, but it’s, I think it is valuable to have everyone talking about the same data and the same, , measurement. , Kanika, we have one last question for you before our game. We’re curious, what’s changed most about you as a person, as a professional, , since you started this work?
[00:33:48] KANIKA CHAWLA: I think I’ve become a bit more patient. And patience is, is an interesting thing because I always felt, as a young professional. Patience or being patient would mean that I didn’t have the sense of urgency. But I think what I have learned is that the two are actually quite different things and, and patience means it’s not over till it’s over. So just because it didn’t work in the way that you first set out to achieve something, it doesn’t mean you have to give up. You just have to try a different way and, and that requires a lot of patience. It requires overcoming a lot of the. The frustrations of, of failure or the frustrations of not having everybody else meet you where you would like them to meet you or, you know, at that, at a level that you think is, is adequate in terms of enthusiasm and and commitment. But there is no way to do this alone. And so the only way to do it is patiently together and by learning and trying very many different things.
[00:34:54] KATIE AUTH: So now Kanika, it’s time to play a short game that we call short circuit. This is a rapid fire round of some serious, some silly questions. are you ready?
[00:35:05] KANIKA CHAWLA: Yes.
[00:35:06] KATIE AUTH: Okay. What’s your favorite Indian dish?
[00:35:09] KANIKA CHAWLA: Uh, I think it would have to be rice and dahl.
[00:35:13] KATIE AUTH: Hmm.
[00:35:13] KANIKA CHAWLA: Very basic
[00:35:15] KATIE AUTH: Sometimes basic is the best.
[00:35:17] ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. , all right, so we’re gonna put you on the spot a bit with this one because we know your boss. But, , what is the most important quality in a boss?
[00:35:24] KANIKA CHAWLA: to be quite secure.
[00:35:26] ROSE MUTISO: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:26] KANIKA CHAWLA: And and unthreatened by the people that you work with and empower them.
[00:35:30] KATIE AUTH: this is a, a little bit of a silly one, if you were an energy technology, which one would you be?
[00:35:37] KANIKA CHAWLA: Uh, a battery,
[00:35:39] KATIE AUTH: Oh,
[00:35:40] KANIKA CHAWLA: I dunno which kind of battery yet, because
[00:35:42] ROSE MUTISO: don’t pick winners? Tech technol, your technology Agnostic. Battery.
[00:35:48] KANIKA CHAWLA: Yeah, exactly.
[00:35:49] ROSE MUTISO: Okay. You travel a lot, so, what is your best travel hack?
[00:35:55] KANIKA CHAWLA: So, you know, I’m, I’m really quite fortunate that I can sleep on planes, so it doesn’t matter what, what, time of day I am flying, I will make sure I’m really exhausted so I can sleep on.
[00:36:06] KATIE AUTH: Uh, I’m so jealous. Yeah. So last one, we heard you’re very into coffee. , as am I, I wanna know, you walk into a fancy coffee shop. What’s your go-to coffee order? First on just a normal day, maybe you’re rushing to work, and then on a day when you really wanna splurge and treat yourself.
[00:36:25] KANIKA CHAWLA: So on a regular day in Americano with a splash of skim milk and on on a, on a splurge, sit and read your book day a.
[00:36:36] KATIE AUTH: Mm-hmm. Nice.
[00:36:38] ROSE MUTISO: I’m imagining you in a, in a Vienna cafe with, with a book. Cool. That’s amazing. So Kanika, um, that was a lot of fun.
[00:36:51] ROSE MUTISO: Thanks for playing a short circuit with us. , now we’re gonna do one last kind of serious thing before we close. , last episode, Faten Aggad was our guest and we usually ask the outgoing guest to ask to pose a question for the incoming guest. , and so , this is what she wanted to know from you.
[00:37:07] ROSE MUTISO: So, , what are your views on the impact of the trade war on access to green technology, particularly for developing countries, and what do you propose to manage this? So, that’s a very Faten question.
[00:37:17] KANIKA CHAWLA: But it’s also a really good question, right? Because it, it’s, , one of the things that has happened as a result of this trade war is there’s this sense of, , impending doom. But I really think it’s an opportunity. I think as the world looks towards more diversified supply chains, it’s an. To become centers of, manufacturing or assembly for demand that is beyond just their borders.
[00:37:44] KANIKA CHAWLA: And, and this really fits in very much with a lot of what I think is the greatest economic opportunity of our time, this energy transition where. Every single country, if they were to use their preferential, you know, trade agreements and, and work jointly to identify where their competitive advantage is in that value chain, that they can all participate in the energy markets much more fully than they have ever in the past. So, so I am, I’m still looking at this, you know, with, Some amount of optimism, and I think that Faten might agree with me because she also thinks that there’s a lot of untapped opportunity in terms of the the manufacturing, the critical mineral development and the the assembly opportunities across the, the global south.
[00:38:32] KATIE AUTH: I think that’s a great note to end on. Kanika, thank you so much for being with us today. This was awesome. , and that’s it for today’s show. High Energy Planet is a production of the Energy for Growth Hub matching policymakers with evidenced-based pathways to a high energy future. For everyone, find out more@energyforgrowth.org and share your questions and thoughts with Rose and I at Energy for growth on X and LinkedIn.
[00:39:00] ROSE MUTISO: if you like today’s episode, be sure to rate and review the podcast and tell a friend about us, Audrey Zenner is our senior producer. Join us next time for more High Energy Planet.