Energy for Growth Hub
Podcast Aug 16, 2024

Episode 24 The High Energy Rewind: Season 3 Highlights with Katie and Rose
Rose Mutiso, Katie Auth

Welcome to the last episode of Season 3! Hosts Rose Mutiso and Katie Auth sit down together to revisit their favorite moments from the past season. They share standout clips from this season’s interviews, highlighting conversations with this season’s guests on everything from Nigeria’s net zero model to the importance of humility. Listen in to relive the laughter, lessons, and unforgettable conversations of this season of High Energy Planet.

Show Notes

Transcript

ROSE MUTISO: I’m Rose Mutiso. I’m Katie Auth, and this is High Energy Planet, the podcast from the Energy for Growth Hub about new ideas to solve global energy poverty. So today’s show is our final episode of season 3, so this is massive milestone. I know we made it to season 3, and, it’s been a lot of fun. We’ve grown a lot along the way, and I think season 3 has been the most fun. And, I mean, I mean, obviously, all of our guests over the years have been amazing, but I think season 3 is when we’ve kind of settled on the frame and vibe of the show. Kitty, would you agree?

KATIE AUTH:  Yeah. Season 3 was awesome, and I think you and I felt more comfortable. We loved our conversations and our guests, and, it was a great a great season.

ROSE MUTISO: And so yeah. And onward and upwards. So every season is amazing. We have been learning so much through this process. So thank you, dear listener, for walking with us through this journey over the 3 seasons to kind of, you know, co-designing this podcast and its tone, its approach, and its kind of overall vibe. So thanks so much. So in the spirit of new things, we’re doing something different this season closer. So, I mean, I think even the idea of a season closer is new. This is, you know, breaking news. So now this podcast is a season closer, in case you’re wondering.

KATIE AUTH: Now we’re now we’re podcast professionals. So, yeah, we thought we’d try something new. This season, we talked to 9 incredible people with very different experiences and perspectives on different parts of the energy transition, different parts of energy poverty. And so today, we’re gonna time travel a little bit. We’re gonna go back and revisit each of those episodes and pull out just a very short nugget from each one that we found particularly interesting, illuminating, exciting, and talk about why that particular quote stuck with us.

ROSE MUTISO: And we’ve split up the episodes between us. We’ll go back and forth. And Katie actually has no idea what quotes I’ve chosen and vice versa. So this should hopefully be a super interesting conversation. Let’s do it, Katie.

KATIE AUTH: Okay. I’m up first. This was episode 1. We talked with Vij Ramachandran, the director for energy and development at the Breakthrough Institute. She’s also a member of the board here at the Energy for Growth Hub. And in this clip that we’re about to play, Rose had just asked her why it seems like it took so long for the development community to recognize the importance of energy for job creation and economic growth.

VIJAYA RAMACHANDRAN: It marked in parallel the shift of the World Bank away from funding infrastructure. Canceling dam projects, reducing the infrastructure portfolio drastically in the eighties, particularly. Also, it’s into the nineties a bit. And I think from there, you know, the development community kind of shifted into health and education. And you do see the size of the health sector is now probably, I don’t know, 5 or 6 times the size of any other sector in development. And I think that’s a result in part of a shift that occurred almost 30 years ago now, where the major development players decided infrastructure was too difficult. It had too many environmental negatives. There was a lot of pressure from nongovernmental organizations, mostly, I think, in rich countries that were objecting to the environmental consequences of building roads and building power plants and building dams and so on. And as a result, I think we saw this big shift away from the kinds of issues that you and and Katie and I talk and write about. And I think only now we’re coming back to that set of questions. We’re ramping back up in terms of infrastructure.

KATIE AUTH: So this one struck me because, Rose, you and I kind of came into this space, into the energy poverty community in the 20 tens ish when, energy was already a really big thing in development. It was arguably one of the biggest areas of focus. We were there for the launch of SDG 7 and SE For All and Power Africa and all these big shiny initiatives that were trying to target energy poverty and energy infrastructure. So for us, it’s easy to kind of assume that that’s how it’s always been, and it’s easy to forget that these things are all cyclical. And so listening to Vij, I was like, yeah, it went out of favor. Now it’s in favor, and I’m sure it will shift again. And I just was wondering about what the next cyclical shift in the development community is going to be. And as an organization who’s working in this space, given that those shifts are gonna happen, how do you continue to push your message and at the same time adapt when you need to as the conversation and the focus shifts?

ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. No. I definitely agree. And, actually, one thing that really struck me from this conversation is, you know, us policy wonks, sometimes our role is a little bit, you know, we can seem so passive, so we’re just kind of typing furiously and, are kind of “armchair commentating,” but I think that in terms of who sets the next cycle, who is really doing this agenda setting, I think policy people play a big role. And so it’s a massive responsibility, which, you know, much power, much responsibility, and so on and so forth. And so I think listening to this again, it just made me realize that actually we have quite a lot of power. We should wield that. But then at the same time, there’s a lot that is kind of you know, that many forces need to align for, you know, your thing, the thing that you think is important to be to be on the agenda to success successfully push the agenda in a certain direction. And so I think it’s just a mix of having conviction and being open, watching the trends, but also just there’s so much randomness in terms of what gets hot and what’s not. Yeah.

KATIE AUTH: Absolutely. All right. Let’s do the next one.

ROSE MUTISO: So in episode 2, we talked with Tim McDonnell, who is the climate and energy editor at Sema 4. In this clip, I just asked him how he approaches the challenge of appraising rapid advancements in clean tech for his readers and often needing to make quick judgments about their viability and future trajectories. And so this is like a big thing he has to do, and many of us are hanging on his every word. And so I just was curious to know how he navigates that.

TIM MCDONNELL:  I’m sure I’ve misjudged many things. Read my stories over the years. But, I mean, I think you have to have a lot of humility to do this job. The nature of my job is, for better or worse, that I’m required to make kind of snap judgments about how I wanna characterize a certain development or a certain technology. And, you know, I try not to say, like, I know for sure this thing is gonna be the thing. You know? You know, I think you kind of approach it with just a sense of curiosity. And I like to elevate in the newsletter technologies or, you know, startups or ideas that just seem interesting and cool or, like, you know, are solving a problem in a new way. I don’t know if, you know and you mentioned direct air capture or, like, you know, carbon removal is definitely one where, like, a lot of people are throwing a lot of different stuff at the wall. We don’t know what’s gonna stick, what’s gonna really be viable. There’s probably some you know, there could be some side effects in terms of, you know, energy consumption and water use with those that you know, that’s just for that for that example that that haven’t been fully explored yet. We don’t know how this stuff is gonna really scale. It’s all just at this, like, super micro pilot stage, and what does that actually look like when it gets bigger. So I like to just kind of bring these things up and shine a light on different things that I think are cool without necessarily, like, always planting my flag in I know this technology is the way to do things.

ROSE MUTISO: So, Katie, listening to Tim’s response really struck a chord with me. You know, and I appreciated how he described having a point of view, but also maintaining a sense of humility and openness. And, you know, the other thing this exchange did is that we realized just how similar our roles are. You know, we think of the media people as they’re doing their thing and we’re policy people doing our thing. But then I think that we’re also in the policy world, and in our messaging having to constantly navigate this fine line. So it’s it’s just a reminder of the importance of staying curious and and cautious in our work.

KATIE AUTH: Yeah. I really liked his focus on curiosity. For me, that’s, like, key to just how to approach any conversation, whether it’s, you know, related to energy policy or, like, a chat with your best friend about, I don’t know, whatever is going on with them. Like, curiosity keeps you humble and it also lets you have opinions and recognize that, like, yeah, you might be wrong. It’s fine. It’s this is a giant conversation we’re having globally about really complex topics. And I think over the years, I personally have worked to get more comfortable with probably being wrong about many things. And I think that’s challenging for folks, but it’s so important.

KATIE AUTH: Episode 3, we talked with Habiba Daggash, who’s a senior associate with the Africa Energy Program at the Rocky Mountain Institute. And in the quote you’re about to hear, she’s talking about the specific moment when she realized that she had major doubts about the assumptions behind Nigeria’s net zero plan. Let’s listen.

HABIBA DAGGASH: I think in my experience of systems modeling, I’ve always said you can make a model say anything because it’s all about adjusting rates, really. It’s about saying how quickly things can be built, how quickly things can go down, how quickly things can get cheaper. If you play around with those numbers, you could get pretty much any reality. But those assumptions are always sense checked to ensure that they are concurrent with what is possible. And based on what the scientists and the innovators that are actually producing these technologies say. If you don’t do that baselining, as we say, creating that base case for your model, you’re going to be off the mark. You know, they say garbage in, garbage out, like, for a model. And I went back, and I just looked at it and started picking apart, like you said, looking because they put some bullet points with the build rates, and I’m just like, this is way off the mark. If you start at a country with 5 gigawatts of electricity generation, and then you say you’ll do 5 gigawatts of solar alone every year. And I’m just like, this person didn’t bother their assumptions because they were so desperate to get to net 0. And I think this is the Mhmm. Net 0 has become this ambition because it’s come out of IPCC, integrated assessment models. It’s been said that that’s the holy grail of decarbonization and climate change mitigation. So everyone is scampering to say, yes. I can sign up to this. But then the problem is when you then commit yourself to this and you’re held accountable and you know it’s not a realistic plan, a lot of issues then come on the on the back of it, which is what the last few years has been.

KATIE AUTH: So, Rose, you and I have spent the past, you know, 1 to 2 years really thinking a lot about what the net zero ambition means for countries that are energy poor and trying to decarbonize while building out energy systems at a massive scale. And I think what Habiba’s quote really brought home for me listening to it again, is that big ambitious kind of high level targets like net zero emissions by 2,050, I think can be super valuable in setting out a captivating vision and getting people to align around a same goal and move in the same direction and hold people accountable. But it can also be very dangerous when they start to overshadow the quality of the analysis that goes into them. And when the pressure to demonstrate that you have a plan to get to net zero becomes more important than, you know, actually figuring out viable ways to move in the right direction. And I’m, I, you know, I just think we’re we’re at risk of focusing too much on the end goal and not enough on okay, what can we do today to move in the right direction?

ROSE MUTISO: Yeah, I definitely agree. And this is something we’ve obviously been working closely on together for, as you said, a couple of years. And, you know, I think what really strikes me here is this constant calibration between the analytical and the political because they both feed into each other, obviously. And so it’s none is more important than the other necessarily, you know? And so I think both camps really need to be constantly, you know, trying to balance each other out to find the right sweet spot. But it’s yeah, it’s a tough one, right? Yeah. It’s a really tough one.

ROSE MUTISO: So in episode 4, we talked with Tisha Schuller, who is the founding CEO of Adamantine Energy and also a member of the Energy for Growth Hub Board. And Tisha has extensive experience both in environmental activism and also in the oil and gas sector. So it’s a very unique mix that she has. And in this clip, she shares her approach to engaging with people who have different worldviews, which is a big part of her job straddling both the climate and ONG community. So let’s let’s listen. Let’s listen to her here.

TISHA SCHULLER: What I’ve learned that is most impactful to me and my I think that when I can be effective is understanding how important an individual’s worldview is. So, So, Rose, you were talking about how you had to do that your own chameleoning, and there’s a natural thing that you did, which is my uncle comes from this environment, and the world looks like this. Mhmm. And therefore, to be respectful, I need to engage in this way. That’s how I try to engage. So I now vary just first sort of first principles I if I walk into a room, who’s this audience? What does the world like look like to them? What would be a takeaway that would be impactful? How could they leave here saying I have received something useful to me? And then engaging from there. So I think the worldview one occupies actually determines so much now of what people can hear, how they’re willing to engage, and understanding that has allowed me in some instances to have a superpower. Right? To make connections where connections seem impossible. But on the other hand, again, back to the same theme, it can be perceived as inauthentic. Like, oh, you’re telling them what they wanna hear. So the magic piece of this, the discerning piece of this is to do so authentically. It’s not that hard to do authentically if you can find deep respect for the people with which you’re engaging. Even if you disagree with them wildly, you can find respect for the their humanity, their interest in doing the right thing, for the way that they believe they’re on the side of right.

ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. So, Tisha’s response here really resonated deeply with me, particularly her point about the importance of respecting and humanizing others even when we disagree. So, you know, this respect is crucial, especially when dealing with polarizing and intractable issues or just issues that have such deep societal significance. Transitions, climate resilience, like these are deep weighty issues. And so just this baseline of respect is so important in our line of work. And, and Tisha’s response was particularly poignant because it’s this respect which we’ve built over many years of working with Tisha, of getting to know her personally as a collaborator and a friend. This respect is what us to have, a meaningful conversation with her despite our different views, on the role of the oil and gas sector and the energy transition. And so I think I just love that this episode was basically putting into practice this idea of what is possible when you have such a strong foundation of respect.

KATIE AUTH: So I haven’t listened to, these interviews since we recorded them. But listening to Tisha’s, I’m reminded again of how I felt when we recorded it, which was inspired to kind of try to carry Tisha’s, way of being out into the rest of my life. So like, not just the work that we do, but into all aspects of life and how different the world would be if everyone went into a conversation with that kind of thoughtfulness and humanization. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that conversation was illuminating for everyone.

ROSE MUTISO: In episode 6, we talked with Hannah Ritchie, who is a deputy editor and lead researcher at Our World in Data. So in this clip, we’re talking to Hannah about the dynamics of infighting among groups with shared goals, and she uses this really interesting diagram. And this this comes from her book, actually, not the end of the world, but just came out earlier this year, and it’s really cool. Please, if you haven’t read it, you should read it. But anyway so in her book, she uses a diagram to illustrate how individuals and factions, despite aiming to address comments like, say, climate change, often get caught up in internal disagreements. And so, let’s listen to Hannah’s perspective on why recognizing shared objectives is so crucial for collective progress.

HANNAH RITCHIE: Yes. Like a diagram where you imagine, like, a center, and this is our our problems. And there’s loads of arrows pointing in one direction, And those are people trying to pull us in the right direction to make progress on this problem. And we all have, like, our favorite solution to this stuff. Right? People have their favorite energy solution or their favorite food solution. And I think what we often see is that where we fight with people the most are people that are largely really strongly aligned with us. Right? We all are trying to move in that direction. It’s just that your arrow might be, like, 10 degrees off to my right and someone else to 10 degrees to my left. And we fail to recognize that we’re put we’re trying to pull in the same direction, and the the risk is that we spend so much time fighting amongst ourselves. And the the problem is that there are arrows pulling in the other direction that don’t want us to move forward. The risk is that we focus all our attention on our kind of end group fighting and we’ve been able to recognize, you know, what’s the actual problem that we’re trying to solve. So there’s issue like here, you know, you get nuclear really pro nuclear people will fight with really pro renewable people. You get we should move to meet substitute crowd, get angry with the we should eat, you know, more raw plant based diet crowd. There’s loads of people that are really largely strongly aligned, but they fail to recognize it. I think what’s important in this space is to try and recognize, you know, who we are aligned with and make sure we’re not spending all of our time just trying to dunk on them.

ROSE MUTISO: This is a really good one. And Hannah’s analogy is, you know, especially relevant, Katie, for the both of us in the context of the many debates, so many debates that we’ve been pulled into over the years, on issues like natural gas, development versus climate goals or debates between off grid and on grid solutions. And, you know, we just kind of despite our kind of peacemaking, you know, inclinations, we just have we’re, you know, friends with everyone and we love talking about everything. We’ve inadvertently gotten pulled into faction-y infighting, which has been very difficult for us. And so I think it was really, really nice to hear from Hannah and just to have this elevated view of both. I think she did a good job of describing why this happens in a nonjudgmental way, why this is the case, but also had a, I think, a very powerful prescription for how we can rise above it. And so, you know, the schematic of arrows pulling towards a common center beautifully illustrates how this hinders progress, and it’s a reminder of this kind of why zero sum thinking on complex interconnected issues is just not helpful. But it also helps us see quite visually why it it also kinda makes sense that we fight so much with our closest neighbors. And so I think it kinda cuts both ways, both helping us understand why we’re stuck in this dynamic and in an unjudgmental way, but what we can do so.

KATIE AUTH: So Rose, I don’t know if it’s a, it may be a slightly different version of whatever image is in her book, but I think I originally saw a version of this that Ken Caldara posted on Twitter, like a couple of years ago. And I loved it so much that I actually printed it out and like hung it over my desk. It just explains so much about like, yeah, how this, how this world operates, the, the debates that seem so heated and so contentious. And then you take one step back and you realize that actually these groups are so closely aligned And regardless of which path we end up taking, we’re still gonna be moving in the right direction.

ROSE MUTISO: I love that, Katie. And, also, it’s interesting because in Hannah’s book, she actually traces back the origin of the schematic to Ken and a couple of other people, and we had a lot of we had a little bit of a back and forth about how because she’s really aggressively into citing sources. And so in this book, which is just, you know, like a nonfiction kind of just flowing prose she really goes to pains to like really like be like I think this came from this person maybe like she just like the the genesis of this of this of the schematic is given kind of quality time in the book so so I’m really glad that it’s we’ve come so full circle on it.

KATIE AUTH: The lesson is also that I have to read Hannah’s book — sorry Hannah!

ROSE MUTISO: It’s a really good one well one other lesson for me is so I’ve also once in my career printed a picture of something and hang it up above my desk to inspire me. The picture that I I printed is of Oprah Winfrey, and that is a story for a future podcast episode. I’m just gonna leave it as a cliffhanger. So all of you are wondering why why this energy won’t printed a picture of Oprah Winfrey to inspire her work. So that that one, ask me in the next AMA episode.

KATIE AUTH: I totally thought it was gonna be a picture of Barack Obama when he went to Kenya and he toured the energy, access thing.

ROSE MUTISO: So that would be the logical thing. But you know that I’m not a logical person. No. Oprah Winfrey is who I was channeling.

KATIE AUTH: So let’s go on. This is Episode 7. We talked with Murefu Baraza. He’s the founder and the managing partner of EED Advisory, which is a Pan African consulting firm that works on energy and water and climate. And in this quote, he’s talking about the development and kind of the unexpected trajectory of M Pesa, the mobile money platform, and how it surprised him.

MUREFU BARASA: And in fact, I I don’t think there’s any human being that would have imagined what M Pesa is because M Pesa is not just a payment platform. M Pesa is an enabler of businesses, an enabler of of lifestyle. It’s it’s an empowerment tool. It’s so many things to so many people, but it just started out as an app. So sometimes even in development, we may have very strong opinions, say, about mini grids or about e mobility or about solar home systems. But the truth of the matter, you know, we have to come always with a level of humility knowing that we all don’t know how these things play out. So I also try to, you know even when I have a very strong opinion about an emerging topic, I always try to consider that, you know, I could be wrong.

KATIE AUTH: So I love Murefu for so many reasons, but I loved this point about how when you’re looking at an emerging technology or in an emerging policy solution, you know, it’s totally valid to have, an initial reaction to it or to even have expectations or projections of how it’s gonna work out. But I think we never we never should assume that we know what it’s gonna lead to, what it’s gonna grow into. And some of the most amazing things have come from something that was designed to solve an entirely different problem. And the other thing that I thought of when he was talking is like, that can go both ways. Like, we also don’t, we don’t know what additional problems a new technology or new solution will create. And so just again, that sense of humility and curiosity and staying open to that, I love.

ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. And Katie, I think that it’s interesting because you and I separately have picked clips. So me for Tim’s episode and you from where his episode that are kind of tackling the same theme of, you know, sticking out a point of view that’s insightful and additive, in terms of a lot of uncertainty. And I think that, you know, we both, you know, are trying to learn from others about how to find the right balance point. And especially when we, you know, often, you know, we’ve talked about this before. There’s so much pressure to have a hot take or to come out decisive or strong. And we’ve really been trying to unpack this, and so I love that that unpacking we’ve been doing behind the scenes has floated to the top of this, of this close-up episode and in the quotes that we picked. And I think we’ll, I can see us continuing to wrestle with this with this question in the next season.

ROSE MUTISO: So in episode 8, we talked with Sheila Herrling, who is the Hub’s first board chair and a former policymaker at the US Treasury and the Millennium Challenge Corporation. And and Sheila has had, other affiliations in philanthropy and in social entrepreneurship and is just an all around awesome person. Anyway, in this clip, Sheila shares a candid and insightful perspective on personal growth throughout her career, and, I thought it was, a really fantastic end to what was a really fantastic podcast episode.

SHEILA HERRLING: I would say that the biggest change, is that I am just more present. Like, I work very hard to be very present to whatever and whoever is in front of me at this moment. And it’s really powerful because, you know, some of those moments are hard, painful. And instead of, you know, what I used to do is run from them. Right? Or come up with or, like, find, like, action. Action. Action. I want problem solver. Do this, do that, do this Mhmm. And then we’re done, or redirect to something else. And I just have really found such a difference in life to be able to just be present. You know, I found some of my old, like, treasury notebooks. I don’t know why I keep all this stuff. No. I love it. That’s part of your your journey. It’s so funny. And I am like, oh my gosh. You see? What I used to do in meetings is I would sit there, and as people were talking, I would literally write down Mhmm. What I was gonna say. And, man, there are some of, like, the most poignant, smart, snarky comments that were never said. Because by the time I got, like, the perfect sentence crafted, the conversation had moved on. Like Uh-huh. So it’s just like I laughed out loud. I’m like, right. And that’s why if you’re just present and you’re not worried about what I’m gonna say because if you’re worried about what you’re gonna say, you’re actually not listening Exactly. To the person who’s talking, and so you just miss out so much. And if now, like, you know, and just whether they’re friends or colleagues or whatever it is, I just listen more with the view to being a listener Mhmm. Than being a problem solver, and and that’s hard. That took a lot of training because I’m such a problem solver. Like and so I just like to be able to just kind of take a pause and say, was that enough? Like, was listening to what you said enough, or would you like to problem solve? Like Mhmm. Do you want my would you like my feedback? Would you like some ideas, or was that enough? And it’s amazing how many times people say, that was enough. I just needed to share. And that is a gift. Yeah. So I I love this, closing segment with Sheila, and, you know, I think she did such a great job of describing, you know, one of the big things that I’m trying to work on as I progress in my career and as I enter the next phase, you know, in our 1st in our fast paced discussions on complex issues like, you know, those around all things energy and tech, which is, you know, our day job, you know, it’s easy to rush into problem solving mode.

ROSE MUTISO: And Sheila did such a great job here of reminding us of the profound impact of simply being present and listening attentively, you know, whether with colleagues or friends or doing tough conversations. And, you know, I think that I’m personally trying to be just a more grounded person just to be still, you know, and and I and I think that, you know, being still, being quiet, being grounded, these are kind of ideas that are floating around in the kind of, you know, woo hoo, let’s be spiritual, kind of pseudo therapy. But then I love that she puts these ideas squarely in the world of policy that what that means in our world, and so I really love that.

KATIE AUTH: Yeah. I was actually I I loved that she, specifically tied it to her time at Treasury. And the thing about the Treasury notebooks is so funny. And I have very similar notes, I’m sure. But it made me think that, like, so much of diplomacy and foreign policy is exactly what she’s describing. Because I remember moments when I was at USAID, and I’d be with a delegation of US government folks from the embassy, and we’d be talking to a partner government in Nigeria or Kenya or wherever we were. And you’re having this meeting about a 1,000 really complicated topics, and you are trying to simultaneously listen to the partner across the table who is speaking and you’re also simultaneously totally crafting your own response as they’re speaking. And you’re thinking about like, oh, how can I counter that? Or how can I bolster that? And especially in the world of, of, you know, energy development meets diplomacy, you lose so much if you’re not just simply listening. And the person knows if you’re listening. So it just it just struck home to me like it’s such a simple way to strengthen the way that you engage with anyone, whether it’s in an international negotiation or with your spouse.

KATIE AUTH: So, yeah, it was great. Okay. The last episode, people, was Ben Attia. He’s an energy transition researcher and an energy systems modeler. And here, he’s explaining why he thinks that ultimately, we should all be aiming to make project finance boring.

BEN ATTIA: Over time, you know, projects do sort of naturally falls almost maybe asymptotically into sort of standard contract structures that are easily repeatable, easily scalable. And what you’re doing is you’re reducing project development costs, right, and project preparation costs and the soft costs that go into to to developing and financing projects. And I think that’s that’s sort of naturally where markets tend to go. And maybe when you face some sort of aggregated risks, some of which are real and some of which are perceived, that are that are a little bit higher and a little bit harder to mitigate. The creativity is a way through that on your way to being boring.

KATIE AUTH: So he’s talking about finance being boring in, you know, mature energy markets like in the US or Europe and more interesting in emerging markets where you’re dealing with, you know, a much wider range of obstacles and unpredictability and you’re adapting on the fly and you’re coming up with new financing structures. And he’s saying that, you know, ultimately, it will be a sign of success when those emerging markets are also boring because they’re kind of operating on autopilot. And I’m actually wondering if that dynamic of mature versus emerging markets is actually changing, because energy markets in the US and Europe are evolving rapidly. I think if you’re talking about kind of advanced decarbonization, and how do we scale to meet AI demand, and how do we decarbonize like, none of that is how our markets have been operating for the last 30 years. And so if if it stays boring in the US and Europe, it probably means we’re failing because we’re not actually pushing fast enough on decarbonization.

ROSE MUTISO: Yeah. I think that was it’s really, really interesting. And I guess we’re in the midst of so many paradigm changes. I, you know, I think one thing I’m remembering that exchange also. It’s the most recent podcast episode we recorded, so I guess it’s fresh out of our minds. But, you know, and I think that he had zeroed in on say the utility business which is like super boring, in the US but it’s very, very steady, assured returns, you know, I mean trusted, you know, is where you want to put your money, Whereas, obviously, utilities in poor countries, where we work are just kind of all over the place and kind of falling apart. And so Yeah.

KATIE AUTH: I’m not sure people in California or Texas would totally agree with you. But Yeah.

ROSE MUTISO: Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I guess you’re right. Yeah. I think there’s disruption. Everything is changing, and I get that, but I do think that there’s something there about when investors, and other players are feeling like there’s a steadiness. Like, that’s, like, kind of that is, like, the “boring equilibrium”, but it’s not a permanent it’s like, you know, it’s an unstable equilibrium, I guess, is your point. That it’s a destination, but it’s not a permanent destination. It’s just kind of the point at which then you’re gonna be, you know, something’s gonna come and disrupt the heck out of you or, you become the incumbent. Yeah. So maybe you know what I mean? And so maybe getting to become the incumbent is an accomplishment in itself and to have maturity and steadiness. But then I guess the mistake everyone makes is, to your point, is you sit there and then the next new wave comes in and you’re not ready for it. So I guess maybe it’s you try and get steady and boring and then immediately, someone more, you know, younger and more exciting is gonna come and take over.

KATIE AUTH: Well, at the beginning of that episode, he kind of if you remember, he talks about originally getting interested in energy because he recognized that it was not going to be boring, that it was, like, about to be hugely disrupted. And I think that’s the point I was trying to make is, like, yes, we got to this point at which, you know, advanced energy markets were kind of humming along the same way they had done for decades. And it was really in the emerging economies where things were unpredictable. And I was just I think right now, kind of all markets are in a flux in a new way. And so luckily for Ben, who wants new and exciting project finance structures to work on, you know, there’s gonna be much more of that in in all markets, I think.

ROSE MUTISO: So yeah. And it’s really interesting because I think I personally having grown up in the Wild West of everything is kind of, is is uncertain and unsteady. I kind of crave the steadiness. There’s a part of me personally there’s a I have a personal disposition towards, like, yeah.

KATIE AUTH: Because that means your power system is functioning and you’re able to get 24/7 electricity.

ROSE MUTISO: Yeah, and in every aspect of our life that we know we just, things because like, you know, for example, and this is, you know, another example, that we’ve talked about Katie separately because we have young children. We, you know, we’ve had some side conversations about the future of education. And that’s an interesting area in which there’s actually a extreme activity on disrupting education in poor countries and tech for education. And the, you know, I think a lot of people are change making and and I, a lot of people are proposing ways in which, tech startups or, like, tech, all of these ways can kind of overcome the gaps in delivering education, in in poor countries. And on one hand, that’s exciting, but on the other hand, I’m like, I just wish we had normal schools. I just wish that, you know, that we weren’t the place where there’s such extreme gaps, that just to do basic things, you have to kind of use all of this creative energy, you know? And so it’s an interesting point. That’s like, is it is it is it is it better to be on the cutting edge of creative, exciting energy? Or do you just want to be a retiree in Florida just, you know, sipping a margarita on the poolside? Nothing new is coming after coming off the pike.

KATIE AUTH: I mean, a margarita sounds nice. I’ll take that part.

KATIE AUTH: That’s it for today’s show and the end of season 3. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Rose, for being an awesome cohost. We learned a ton, we hope you guys all did too. And we’ll be back after the summer break with Season 4. High Energy Planet is a production for the Energy for Growth Hub, matching policy makers with evidence based pathways for a high energy future. Find out more at energyforgrowth.org. And if you have any questions for Rose and I for a future AMA episode or if you’re as desperate as I am to know why Rose printed out and hung on her wall a picture of Oprah Winfrey, you can email us at info@energyforgrowth.org or reach us @energyforgrowth on Twitter and LinkedIn.

ROSE MUTISO: Alright. So if you like today’s episode, be sure to rate and review the podcast and tell a friend about us. Audrey Zenner is our executive producer, and join us next time for more High Energy Planet.